Johan Santana

[metirish]

I just want to gauge the thoughts here on Santana, clearly one of the best pitchers of his generation , owner of some of the biggest balls out there , gives you his all every time out .....but , and that's the problem for me, I have a but about him. I guess I expected CY seasons every season from him , I know the team doesn't score for him , I didn't even check the numbers but the guys in the booth tell us that a lot during his outings.

I know he was brilliant there for a stretch and had nothing in terms of wins to show for it , I dunno , not here to slam the guy as I really like him , just that , I think it will be interesting to look back on this contract.

Look who sponsors his page.....how lame are we?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/santajo02.shtml

[Ceetar]

self promotion on why I think Santana will be fine-> http://www.ceetar.com/optimisticmetsfan/2010/06/17/why-santana-will-be-just-fine/

I laugh at that sponsor everytime. I always thought the idea about sponsoring a page is that when people go to it, they'll see your site link, and maybe go to your page, etc. Advertising. I guess there are a couple of Phillies fans looking up Santanas numbers to write troll posts about how Halladay is better, but seems a poor use of their money. Was Chris Coste's page not available?

I was at the game yesterday, and it was frustrating how that inning unfolded, the two sloppy/lucky plays (and that's at least two "hits" Jeter got basically undeservedly in this series) and then the home run that hit the jet stream and squeaked over the wall.

As far as analyzing the performance, Santana has been slowly been having the velocity creep up again, he didn't quite throw as many balls this time, and did seem to get a couple more swings and misses (although I don't have the actual numbers, just observing). Still not at the "blow them away" point, but guess what? Next time he goes out there it'll be summer, it'll be almost the second half, and it'll be his old team. What better time for a dominant 10k performance?

[Guest Edgy DC]

He's post-op. Maybe he'll get his velocity back in year. Maybe he won't.

I've made no secret of the fact that I think he's trying to be too perfect, unwilling to ptich to contact early in the count with a runner in scoring positon, and perhaps let a run score but avoiding the big inning.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: He's post-op. Maybe he'll get his velocity back in year. Maybe he won't. I've made no secret of the fact that I think he's trying to be too perfect, unwilling to ptich to contact early in the count with a runner in scoring positon, and perhaps let a run score but avoiding the big inning.

The post-op definitely could be affected his long-term arm strength that he hasn't quite built up yet, and it messes with the off-season pitching schedule. we'll see.

Do you think the trying to be "too perfect" is a result of him just being too stubborn to give in (versus the typical Ollie Perez stubbornness of too stubborn to believe that a batter will chase a 3-0 pitch out of the zone?) or frustration with the lack of run support he gets?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

The loss of velocity is one thing.

But that it's accompanied by an intermittent-- but increasingly, regular-- loss of command is more than a little unsettling.

I kinda don't want to talk about this right now.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I think it's a product of stubborness, perhaps, but also of the team not scoring for him and the manager committed through much of the year to one-run strategies...

... which helps the team not score for him

... which helps him grow stubborn.

[TransMonk]

We've gotten pretty much what I expected out of him in his 2+ years as a Met. He's undoubtedly been the ace of teh staff and is the guy I would want to have the ball in a must win game. To expect Cy Young years is setting yourself up for disappointment.

The run support thing is as troubling as anything to me. I think some of it may be in the heads of the offensive players. The ace vs. ace thing has something to do with it as well, I'm sure.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: I think it's a product stubborness, perhaps, but also of the team not scoring for him and the manager committed through much of the year to one-run strategies... ... which helps the team not score for him ... which helps him grow stubborn.

well, I can understand his frustration there..

I do recall a game last year where he swung through a bunt sign for a 2RBI double. Maybe he needs a couple of hits to get going? He didn't get a shot his last two outings.

As far as Cy Young years..Jimenez may have to physically explode not to win it this year, with his home park as Coors, Johan could have the most Johanesque second half and it wouldn't matter.

[batmagadanleadoff]

metirish wrote: I know he was brilliant there for a stretch and had nothing in terms of wins to show for it , I dunno , not here to slam the guy as I really like him .... http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/santajo02.shtml

Bring it on, Irish. What's there to slam? You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells or apologize seventeen times before you wonder if Santana is declining. Ballplayers get old. They lose their skills. And in the end, they all suck. That's the facts. Otherwise, Seaver would still be pitching for the Mets and Keith would be manning first base. Is Santana declining? I dunno. He definitely doesn't throw as consistently hard as he used to in Minnesota, though.

[smg58]

I see no reason to panic. He's still comfortably above average. We may have to accept that we're paying for several more years of "elite" while getting "comfortably above average," but it's not like he's hurting the club every fifth day.

As for the run support, that has a way of evening out in the long run. It's an issue if the lineup goes into a Santana game with a different mindset than they normally do, but I don't believe they do that and at any rate they have no reason to (especially when the results are negative).

[TransMonk]

Yeah, his Ks are down and his WHIP is up...but his overall numbers this year are looking very similar to his 2007 season. The season after which we decided to give him a kajillion dollars.

I think it's going to take a few seasons of markedly declining numbers before we can start thinking about griping. Even then, we should probably bite our tongues as his numbers will still look pretty good compared to the league average.

[Frayed Knot]

We can look at Santana's last three games or the five prior to that: 36.2 IP with 3 ER - where he was 1-0 in those five starts even as the Mets were 1-4
Point being that small samples - particularly the most recent ones - go a long way in coloring opinions. As for the future, he's going to be here for a while so it's best to just hang on and see where it leads. There's always a risk in linking up with a player (particularly a pitcher) for the long term so we're going to have to live with whatever he gives.


btw, Halladay's last three starts: 22 IP; 25 H; 11 R (10 ER); 5 HRs

[ashie62]

I see less velocity and less command of the fastball. As stated earlier, it is a post op year and wagering is closed.