Booing Beltran, Split from 4/06 IGT

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

rpackrat wrote: Almost every one of Soupcan's posts mentione Beltran's contract. It really seems like you're booing him because you're jealous of his money. I think that signing a big contract (or any contract, for that matter) obligates the player to do only one thing: Make his best effort. A player can't control the results; he can only control his effort. If you have some evidence that Beltran is not putting in his best effort, then by all means boo him. If he is putting in his best effort but not getting the results, then what exactly do you hope to accomplish? Is your booing going to get that line drive down the line to land 2 inches fair instead of 2 inches foul? Is it going to cause the warning track fly ball to go 5 extra feet? It's just infantile petulance rooted in jealousy that this guy makes so much more money than most of us ever will.

It's not the money, it's the club's investment in him. By paying such a huge salary, the club (claims) it is unable to pay other players, so it has in effect tied its results closely to his. That, I believe, is what Soupy is complaining about when he complains about Beltran's salary.

And rightly so. By signing that contract, Beltran "said" not only that he would collect all that money, no matter what the actual results on the field, but he would give value for it and take criticism if he underperforms. No ballplayer has ever signed a $119 million contract and announced at his press conference "This is all about the money. Now I've got the Mets on the hook, but they can't really expect me to play particularly well or under any adverse circumstances. I might not play so well if hear boos. If I get a tweak in my gluteus maximus, I might take a month off. If my manager sticks me in the wrong slot, or rests me when I feel like playing, or expects me to motivate my lazy teammates when that's not my job, well, fuck it. Maybe I don't try to so hard if they pull any of that shit with me. if I feel like bunting for twenty straight at-bats, that is my decision, and nobody better get in my face. I've signed this contract and Im set for life." No, they promise to fulfill the contract, and it's not unreasonable to expect something like $119 million dollars worth of performance, starting with Day One of the deal. if Beltran tanks, our next seven years are going to be tough sledding, and that what the big contract represents to me, a huge commitment, for which I expect a huge performance. If I don't get it, I have no problem with Beltran living with boos. If he does, I'll switch places with him anytime. In fact, you guys are all welcome at my apartment to boo me. Bring a twenty bucks entrance fee, and you can curse me out for half a hour straight. I'll sit there and I'll smile and tip my cap the whole time.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: ]I know you don't mean anything personally but could we stop with the name calling. It just makes it harder not to respond in kind and I'd rather this not devolve into that. The irony is... ironic, isn't it?

Not really. We have the capacity to be subtle, and thoughtful, and considerate of each other here, but you're in a binary position out in the cheap seats trying to communicate something to a player. Either you shut up and or communicate something very unsubtle. If I had only a second of two of your attention, and maybe a 15,000 to 1 chance it would reach you, I'd give up on subtlety and I'd probably treat much more rudely than I otherwise would.

Celebrities of all sorts benefit enormously from their fame, not just financially, but when they complain about some of the downsides, I always want to ask them if they'd like to give up the whole package. Of course, they 'd look at you and say "Me? Go back to being a grocery clerk? I don't think so." There's a word for people who want the good parts of their lives and refuse to absorb even a little of the bad part. What word am I thinking of?

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

You can explain away the ugliness any way you want, but booing still embarrasses me, still makes you look like a jerk, and won't ever be particularly effective.

[Guest KC]

Gary Cohen just mentioned message boards where fans discuss the Mets and
specifically the threads the last couple of days re: booing.

No mention of specific boards that he reads.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: You can explain away the ugliness any way you want, but booing still embarrasses me, still makes you look like a jerk, and won't ever be particularly effective.

ADD: ...and won't ever stop.

[nymr83]

Produce and you won't hear "boooo" its as simple as that.
I agree with Bret, pay me a fraction of what they get paid TO PLAY A FRIGGIN GAME and you can boo me all you want, i'll probably even join in booing myself if i'm playing poorly.

[Guest KC]

Paying someone a couple of 20's and going over their house and booing
them and getting booed in your stadium on your first failed at bat by a crowd
in front of 55,000 people and broadcasted to hundreds of thousand of other
fans ON OPENING DAY is a pretty silly comparison.

The camp that plays the "they're getting paid millions to play a kids game and
I'd do if for a fraction" is silly too.

I can't decide what was dumber about the start of our season, the booing or
the Enter Sandman saga. At least the where to bat Beltran debate has some
baseball legs to it, the rest is quite yawn producing.

[soupcan]

="rpackrat"]Almost every one of Soupcan's posts mentione Beltran's contract. It really seems like you're booing him because you're jealous of his money.

Damn straight I'm jealous of his money. Aren't you?

It's not the reason I'd boo him but it sure as hell plays into it. As I've explained the man gets paid a crapload of money to produce and as Bret has explained so well this figures into the entire makeup of the club.

If the guy lives up to his contract - and to me in this case that means give me your average career numbers - then I'll cheer louder than you, but if he doesn't I see nothing wrong with booing. If you're going to call me a jerk then I'm going to you a sycophantic idol-worshipping teat suckler.

I do understand everyone's point about not booing your hometown guy and instead encouraging and supporting him and that's cool. When Piazza first came here in '98 that was my attitude towards him. The difference then was that Piazza had no prior experience here so I was willing to give him some time to come around. Beltran has had a full season. I'm frustrated with him.

[Guest KC]

I haven't read everything posted here, it's just too much and I don't have a
horse in this thread. But can we all agree that booing him after his first at
bat on opening day was a little whack? I don't care about his money, his
first season, or anything like that - Shea fans can be and often are assholes.

I offer the "Yankee Suck" chants as another example of the bone headed
contingent that creates the long beer lines and don't buy one at a time.

[nymr83]

]But can we all agree that booing him after his first at bat on opening day was a little whack

I think it's worth booing him the first time up as a result of last season, after that its a new year and i wont start booing him again unless he's shitty late enough into the season to form an opinion.

Although i will boo someone for a boneheaded play, like what Hermida did tonight, no matter what.

]...as another example of the bone headed contingent that creates the long beer lines and don't buy one at a time.

you mean the guys who keep Shea in business by dutifully shelling out $60 for 6 beers?

[soupcan]

KC wrote: But can we all agree that booing him after his first at bat on opening day was a little whack? I don't care about his money, his first season, or anything like that - Shea fans can be and often are assholes.

I'll give you that.

Again the only reason I booed then was to irk a fan.

Fans of every team can be assholes though. I don't want hear about how loving Cardinal fans are. Personally I think THEY are morons for treating their athletes like kings just because they wear a St. Louis uniform.

[soupcan]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: It bothers me when alleged supporters of the team behave like entitled illiterate schmucks, because it reflects poorly on me.

That's crap by the way.

What I do does not reflect on you. I'm an individual and so are you. Why should you care what other people who don't know you think about you?

You sound like my 9 year-old son who gets embarrassed when I sing loudly along with the muzak in the supermarket.

[Guest rpackrat]

]If you're going to call me a jerk then I'm going to you a sycophantic idol-worshipping teat suckler.

Yes, because arguing that one should not act like a jerk toward someone else is certainly tantamount to sycophantic idol worship. In fact, I engage in sycophantic idol worship every morning when I wait for the people sitting in front of me on the bus to get out of their seats before I move into the aisle.

[Guest Edgy DC]

]You sound like my 9 year-old son who gets embarrassed when I sing loudly along with the muzak in the supermarket.

That is embarassing.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

]That's crap by the way.

No it isn't.

]What I do does not reflect on you.

Sure it does.

]Why should you care what other people who don't know you think about you?

Because it undermines my pride.

[soupcan]

rpackrat wrote: Yes, because arguing that one should not act like a jerk toward someone else is certainly tantamount to sycophantic idol worship. In fact, I engage in sycophantic idol worship every morning when I wait for the people sitting in front of me on the bus to get out of their seats before I move into the aisle.

No idea what you're trying to say here.

="Edgy DC"]That is embarassing.

For a 9 year old maybe. But I do have a very pleasant singing voice and I usually know most of the words.

="Johnny Dickshot"]Sure it does.

No it doesn't.

="Johnny Dickshot"]Because it undermines my pride.

Sorry, that's your problem. Give Freud a call.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I apologize for ever implying that you guys all drink from the same Koolaid pitcher with equally thirst-quenching efforts.

Oh, do I love it when there's disagreement between people other than me. Such a pleasure to read and to savor. Give me more, please! Somebody, call someone else a nasty name, quick.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

]Sure it does. No it doesn't.

Does too.

]Give Freud a call.

That I should. I wonder what his take might be on envious projecting.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Soupy, you gonna just take that from Dickshot?

[Guest Edgy DC]

rpackrat wrote: Yes, because arguing that one should not act like a jerk toward someone else is certainly tantamount to sycophantic idol worship. In fact, I engage in sycophantic idol worship every morning when I wait for the people sitting in front of me on the bus to get out of their seats before I move into the aisle.

I think he's clearly using irony to say that arguing that one should not act like a jerk toward someone is not tantamount to sycophantic idol worship, a position of yours he's inferring from the teat-suckling post.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Edgy DC wrote: clearly

This is one of those words people use when their syntax is as tangled as a bowl of spaghetti and their diction includes a negative construction plus an inferrence. "Clearly," "obviously,' "plainly," "manifestly," "naturally"--when I hear any of these, my BS detector goes wild.

[soupcan]

="Edgy DC"] ="rpackrat"]Yes, because arguing that one should not act like a jerk toward someone else is certainly tantamount to sycophantic idol worship. In fact, I engage in sycophantic idol worship every morning when I wait for the people sitting in front of me on the bus to get out of their seats before I move into the aisle. I think he's clearly using irony to say that arguing that one should not act like a jerk toward someone is not tantamount to sycophantic idol worship, a position of yours he's inferring from the teat-suckling post.

Well I never said that 'jerk' and 'sycophantic idol worshipping teat suckler' were equivalent, just that if I were going to be called one then I'd call the other person the other. What I didn't understand - and still don't - is how a person on a bus hoping someone will change seats is an idol. 'Splain that please.

]Sure it does. No it doesn't. Does too.

Does not.

="Johnny Dickshot"]I wonder what his take might be on envious projecting.

Sometimes Johnny, a cigar is just a cigar.







Holy Crap! I'm Willie Mays!

Say Hey!

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Dickshot, you gonna take that from Soupy?

[Frayed Knot]

Biggest load of horse-shit excuse to date for booing Beltran (courtesy late night WFAN caller):
'We're not booing him, we're booing the fact that he's hitting 3rd in the lineup instead of 2nd'


Yeah right!

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Why? It could be true, for that person.

You'll get a dozen answers to the question "Why are you booing him" if you put it to a dozen fans. Why assume that 11 of them are lying?

[Guest old original jb]

Booing the Mets to annoy the fan next to you would be like if I called you an asshole to your face in order to piss off my aunt Minnie who doesn't like to hear me curse.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I didn;t say you;d get a dozen good answers.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

old original jb wrote: Booing the Mets to annoy the fan next to you would be like if I called you an asshole to your face in order to piss off my aunt Minnie who doesn't like to hear me curse.

I'm pretty sure Aunt Minnie would agree with the senitment though. Bad example.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

1. he sucks

2. I'm trying to piss off my aunt Minnie by acting like an idiot

3. he didn't hit last year

4. I'm drunk

5. That guy over there started booing and I figure he had a good reason

6. Sending a message that he should try harder

7. Too damned many Latinos on this club.

8. I don't like Free Agents. The Mets should have brought up Brian Cole.

9. Willie's batting him in the wrong spot in the lineup. I'm sending Willie a message.

10. I had a bad day at work, and he got paid more for that last strikeout than I make in a week.

11. I boo everyone until we win the division--keeps them sharp.

12. I was booing?

[nymr83]

#4 leads to half the others.