1965 Crane Pool Forum Rankings Thread

[Guest d'Kong76]

[Frayed Knot]

1965 Rankings
POINTS	PLAYER
30	Johnny Lewis
29	Ron Swoboda
28	Jim Hickman
27	Ed Kranepool
26	Charley Smith
25	Roy McMillan
24	Joe Christopher
23	Jack Fisher
22	Al Jackson
21	Chuck Hiller
20	Tug McGraw
19	Bobby Klaus
18	Ron Hunt
17	Galen Cisco
16	Warren Spahn
15	Chris Cannizzaro
14	Gary Kroll
13	Gordie Richardson
12	Larry Bearnarth
11	Darrell Sutherland
10	Jesse Gonder
9	John Stephenson
8	Billy Cowen
7	Hawk Taylor
6	Tom Parsons
5	Dan Napolean
4	Larry Miller
3	Jim Bethke
2	Gary Kolb
1	Dennis Ribant

[Edgy MD]

Hugeley inconsistent with my copy of the grand table.

Hugely. Including no less than three cats who were left out completely.

1965 Rankings
POINTS	PLAYER	SPREADSHEET SEZ	DIF
30	Johnny Lewis	Johnny Lewis	--
29	Ron Swoboda	Charley Smith	+3
28	Jim Hickman	Jack Fisher	+5
27	Ed Kranepool	Ron Swoboda	-2
26	Charley Smith	Ed Kranepool	-1
25	Roy McMillan	Al Jackson	+3
24	Joe Christopher	Tug McGraw	+4
23	Jack Fisher	Jim Hickman	-5
22	Al Jackson	Warren Spahn	+6
21	Chuck Hiller	Galen Cisco	+4
20	Tug McGraw	Joe Christopher	-4
19	Bobby Klaus	Roy McMillan	-6
18	Ron Hunt	Frank Lary	+18
17	Galen Cisco	Darrell Sutherland	+6
16	Warren Spahn	Gordie Richardson	+3
15	Chris Cannizzaro	Gary Kroll	+1
14	Gary Kroll	Chuck Hiller	-7
13	Gordie Richardson	Bobby Klaus	-6
12	Larry Bearnarth	Ron Hunt	-6
11	Darrell Sutherland	Rob Gardner	+11
10	Jesse Gonder	Dick Selma	+10
9	John Stephenson	John Stephenson	--
8	Billy Cowen	Dennis Ribant	+7
7	Hawk Taylor	Jesse Gonder	-3
6	Tom Parsons	Chris Cannizzaro	-9
5	Dan Napolean	Billy Cowen	-3
4	Larry Miller	Jim Bethke	+1
3	Jim Bethke	Hawk Taylor	-4
2	Gary Kolb	Larry Bearnarth	-10
1	Dennis Ribant	Tom Parsons	-5

[Frayed Knot]

OK, I smell a whole lotta trouble here.
To start with, your list bears no resemblence to anything in the threads discussion. Now I know there's a decent chance that that's not the complete thread (although it does seem like it is) but, among other problems:

* you've got Bearnarth's 60 IPs and Parson's 90 at the bottom of the list, well behind Selma (all of 26 IP) - and Selma doesn't even appear anywhere in the original discussion.
* Rob Gardner (all of 28 IP) wasn't discussed either but now suddenly appears towards the middle of your list.
* Dennis Ribant (and his 35 IP) also jumps up after never being anywhere BUT the very bottom of the list.

Something's rotten in Denmark.

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, well, the utter absence of Lary doesn't look too good for your list either.

[Frayed Knot]

Yeah, Lary looks like he was wronged by not being there, but the bigger question involves how & when he and those other changes got onto your list. It doesn't look like F.L. was ever in the discussion and some of those other "changes" don't look remotely logical.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I'm sure if edgy wasn't so hellbent on destroying the discussion over Yogi Berra's candidacy things woulda been fine.

Just kidding.

OTOH.. Looks at least like list 2 addresses my case for Fat Jack not being pinned beaneath the lineup stiffs.

Let's do this one again.

[Edgy MD]

Sorry to have dominated part of the original conversation with a stupid goofball request. Let's take it back to the main forum.

[Guest iramets]

What's the "grand list"? What are the "rankings"? What's the "spreadsheet"?

Luv to get in on this discussion, but it's like you guys are discussing intricacies of the Kaballah---some help for us Methodists here, plz?

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

iramets, from one methodist to another, I think you might find this thread (and maybe this one) somewhat helpful starting points concerning what everyone is talking about.

[Guest iramets]

Thanks, Doc. Your second link seems to be a cumulative kind of thing, emcompassing many seasons. I'm still not sure why the 1965 season has so much internal difficulty. Did someone change the rankings for 1965 somehow? It seems fairly simple, to argue, and finally agree on, a ranking for players in a particular year. Once the arguing is done, what's the problem? There's your list. I still don't get what the problem is: a transcription error? Someone deliberately changed the 1965 rankings? It was never finally clear what the 1965 rankings were? Someone got paid off?

[metsmarathon]

the problem most likely stems from the fact that the server (a prior home of the CPF) upon which all of the original discussions were conducted, went poof a while back, leaving some threads whole, some threads wholly lost into the ether, and other threads incomplete.

and there's, i don't think, any good way to tell the difference.

ordinarily, the history of the discussions in the thread would lead one to arrive at the consensus ranking for a given year.

but that doesn't seem to be the case here, does it!

i blame edgy. edgy suxxx!!!!

lets redo the whole project!

[Frayed Knot]

So how do we go about "fixing" this list?

It started with the original JA/Iubital list which had some questions about it but either never any resolution to them or else it was lost over time.
Among objections were the lack of pitchers up top as well as Frank Lary being left off entirely.

30 J. Lewis
29 R. Swoboda
28 J. Hickman
27 E. Kranepool
26 C. Smith
25 R. McMillan
24 J. Christopher
23 J. Fisher
22 A. Jackson
21 C. Hiller
20 T. McGraw
19 B. Klaus
18 R. Hunt
17 G. Cisco
16 W. Spahn
15 C. Cannizzaro
14 G. Kroll
13 G. Richardson
12 L. Bearnarth
11 D. Sutherland
10 J. Gonder
9 J. Stephenson
8 B. Cowan
7 H. Taylor
6 T. Parsons
5 D. Napolean
4 G. Kolb
3 J. Bethke
2 L. Miller
1 D. Ribant


'Sal' countered with an alternate list but it's not clear whether any discussion resulted from it;

30 Johnny Lewis
29 Charlie Smith
28 Jack Fisher
27 Ron Swoboda
26 Ed Kranepool
25 Roy McMillan
24 Al Jackson
23 Joe Christopher
22 Jim Hickman
21 Tug McGraw
20 Chuck Hiller
19 Darrell Sutherland
18 Warren Spahn
17 Ron Hunt
16 Bobby Klaus
15 Galen Cisco
14 Gordon Richardson
13 John Stephenson
12 Chris Cannizzaro
11 Billy Cowan
10 Gary Kroll
09 Jesse Gonder
08 Frank Lary
07 Larry Bearnarth
06 Hawk Taylor
05 Tom Parsons
04 Jim Bethke
03 Gary Kolb
02 Danny Napoleon
01 Cleon Jones
00 Dennis Ribant




and then Edgy's supposed "final" list bears only some resemblence to either one and shows no record of how it got that way.

[Edgy MD]

Snark, snark.

[Frayed Knot]

Who's being snarky?
The list which went in as the "official" order doesn't look anything like the original submission and there's nothing in the discussion that followed (at least in the surviving discussion) which shows how it got that way.
If it didn't vary so wildly we wouldn't have re-opened this.

[Edgy MD]

Again with the quotey-quotey thing.

I'll defer to whatever (so long as Lary is redeemed), or we can revisit.

I'm working on 2006.

[Frayed Knot]

I didn't expect this one to get a whole lot of attention, but it was re-opened to discussion when some discrepancies jumped up about the original order due to lost data.

Based on the info we did save, the list looks like:

30 - Lewis
29 - Swoboda
28 - Smith
27 - Fisher
26 - Kranepool
25 - Hickman
24 - McMillan
23 - Christopher
22 - Jackson
21 - McGraw
20 - Hiller
19 - Hunt
18 - Klaus
17 - Spahn
16 - Cisco
15 - Sutherland
14 - Richardson
13 - Cannizzaro
12 - Kroll
11 - Stephenson
10 - Gonder
9 - Bearnarth
8 - Cowen
7 - Lary
6 - Parsons
5 - Hawk Taylor
4 - Bethke
3 - Kolb
2 - Napolean
1 - Larry Miller


So, unless someone has some objections or comments, I'll consider this a done deal.

[Guest iramets]

Might be fun to run some head-to-head comparisons of comparable players ranked differently on various lists, unless someone has better things to do in late January than compare mediocre balplayers from four decades ago.

Frinstance: Swoboda-Hickman, both high-K, moderate-power, clumsy outfielders.

Or Smith-Kranepool, both fair offense, poor defense corner infielders

Or Ribant-Bethke-Selma, all kiddie pitchers, two of whom didn't make it onto the final chart. Selma had four games (all starts) and a 3.67 ERA and a shutout, which looks strong to me; Ribant, who's also not on the chart at all, led the team in Saves (admittedly with 3) and a respectable 3.86 ERA in 35 IP--contrast with Bethke, who threw just 5 more innings than Ribant, had a 4.28 ERA and 0 saves. He ranks #4. Why?

This "official" list looks like a compromise between JA's list and Sal's list, which is fine if we're looking for quick and dirty solutions, but I'm looking for arguments. Someone care to make the case for Jim Bethke?

[Frayed Knot]

The lack of games & IPs is probably what got Selma overlooked originally.
I could make an argument for both him & Ribant over - not Bethke neccesarily - but Napoleon & Miller.

How 'bout:

5 - Ribant
4 - Bethke
3 - Selma
2 - Taylor
1 - Kolb