1959-1962 All-Stars

[roger_that]

I went looking for an example to support my indisputable case that players who were elected to the All-Star teams in 1959 through 1962 get their credentials puffed up by the fact that there were two All-Star games, not one, played in these years, and I found a pretty good one.

If, like me, you find this so indisputable as to be idiotic to argue otherwise, then read no further.

The ideal example I found was Milwaukee's All-Star catchers in the late fifties and early sixties, respectively Del Crandall and Joe Torre. Crandall was elected (according to his https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/crandde01.shtml BBref.com listing) to "11x" All-Star teams from 1953 to 1962, and Torre was elected to "9x" All-Star teams, https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/torrejo01.shtm beginning in 1963.

So Crandall gets a slight edge over Torre in this regard, right?

The problem here, as those of you with functioning arithmetic skills will have seen, is that Crandall was elected in only eight different seasons, and Torre was elected in nine different seasons, Crandall having been elected three times in years that two All-Star games were played. So the edge actually goes to Torre.

Of course, "All-Star teams" is a very poor metric to use in gauging player quality, though some folks do cite it as a measure of excellence (mostly fans of Bobby Richardson) but I think it's misguided to declare players who got elected to two All-Star games in a single season as two-time All-Stars. But it takes all kinds to populate this planet, I guess.

[stevejrogers]

Do you want to petition MLB to change everyone’s counting stats if they played in both ASGs those years?

Not sure if I trust Baseball-Reference in this manner though. They apparently added to selection counts unofficial after the season selections of 1945 rosters. That is the only other time besides 2020 that the ASG concept was completely scrapped for the season.

There is a book from the early 2000 that had an entry for an after the season commissioned list of “selections” in the same MLB skippers chosen manner of the bench and pitching staffs of the era.

Yes, of course anyone who uses ASG selections as anything but an interesting trivia note about the player, especially in HOF debates, “clearly superior than…” debates, etc is crazy.

What I contend is to look at the games played in those years to show that it’s not a case of a blanket “**** THAT ERA” and ignore that it ever happened.

There are a bunch of players each year, except one, that were only selected to just one game. Never mind players who played in one and did not enter the other one (including Met Richie Ashburn).

Players who were only on one of those game rosters:

1959 19 (GEEZ that is much more than I expected)

Roger Maris AL Athletics Game 2 OF

Cal McLish AL Indians Game 2 P

Jerry Walker AL Orioles Game 2 P

Gene Woodling AL Orioles Game 2 OF

Billy O’Dell AL Orioles Game 2 P

Bobby Allison AL Senators Game 2 OF

Pedro Ramos AL Senators Game 2 P

Camilo Pascal AL Senators Game 2 P

Jim Bunning AL Tigers Game 1 P

Billy Pierce AL White Sox Game 1 P

Whitey Ford AL Yankees Game 1 P

Tony Kubek AL Yankees Game 2 SS

Bobby Richardson AL Yankees Game 2 2B

Elston Howard AL Yankees Game 2 C

Johnny Logan NL Braves Game 2 SS

Wilmer Mizel NL Cardinals Game 1 P

Charley Neal NL Dodgers Game 2 2B

Jim Gilliam NL Dodgers Game 2 3B

Sam Jones NL Giants Game 2 P

1960 No changes

1961 16 (still a lot more than I expected, especially with no additions to either 1960 squads)

Ryne Duren AL Angels Game 1 P

Ken McBride AL Angels Game 2 P

Jim Perry AL Indians Game 1 P

Tito Francona AL Indians Game 2 OF

Barry Latman AL Indians Game 2 P

Mike Fornieles AL Red Sox Game 1 P

Don Schwall AL Red Sox Game 2 P

Frank Lary AL Tigers Game 1 P

Camilo Pascual AL Twins Game 2 P

Luis Aparicio AL White Sox Game 2 SS

Roy Sievers AL White Sox Game 2 1B

Bill Skowron AL Yankees Game 2 1B

Luis Arroyo AL Yankees Game 2 P

Ernie Banks NL Cubs Game 2 SS

Don Drysdale NL Dodgers Game 2 P

Ed Bailey NL Giants Game 2 C

1962 17

Ken McBride AL Angels Game 2 P

Bill Monbouquette AL Red Sox Game 1 P

Pete Runnels AL Red Sox Game 2 1B

Al Kaline AL Tigers Game 2 OF

Jim Kaat AL Twins Game 2 P

Ray Herbert AL White Sox Game 2 P

Yogi Berra AL Yankees Game 2 C

Bob Shaw NL Braves Game 1 P

Eddie Mathews NL Braves Game 2 3B

George Altman NL Cubs Game 2 OF

Billy Williams NL Cubs Game 2 OF

Sandy Koufax NL Dodgers Game 1 P

Don Drysdale NL Dodgers Game 1 P

Johnny Podres NL Dodgers Game 2 P

Felipe Alou NL Giants Game 1 OF

Art Mahaffey NL Phillies Game 2 P

Frank Robinson NL Reds Game 2 OF

DNPs in all 8 games

1959 I 13 (GEEZ Fred Haney used 17 of 25 available)

Billy Pierce AL White Sox P

Hoyt Wilhelm AL Orioles P

Yogi Berra AL Yankees C

Joe Cunningham NL Cardinals OF

Vada Pinson NL Reds OF

Frank Robinson NL Reds OF

Bill White NL Cardinals OF

Smoky Burgess NL Pirates C

Hal Smith NL Cardinals C

Gene Conley NL Phillies P

Warren Spahn NL Braves P

Wilmer Mizell NL Cardinals P (Injured)

1959 II 22 (Looks like the reverse happened with Stengel not using 13 guys at his disposal while Haney had 8 guys left on the bench or in the pen)

Roy Sievers AL Senators 1B

Bill Skowron AL Yankees 1B

Bobby Richardson AL Yankees 2B

Harmon Killebrew AL Senators 3B

Gil McDougald AL Yankees SS

Bob Allison AL Senators OF

Harvey Kuenn AL Tigers OF

Minnie Minoso AL Indians OF

Elston Howard AL Yankees C

Gus Triandos AL Orioles C

Bud Daley AL Athletics P

Pedro Ramos AL Senators P

Ryne Duren AL Yankees P

Camilo Pascual AL Senators P (Injured)

Orlando Cepeda NL Giants 1B

Bill Mazeroski NL Pirates 2B

Johnny Logan NL Braves SS

Bill White NL Cardinals OF

Johnny Antonelli NL Giants P

Lew Burdette NL Braves P

Warren Spahn NL Braves P

Don Elston NL Cubs P

1960 I 12 (okay, manageable, even by today’s standards)

Vic Power AL Indians 1B

Whitey Ford AL Yankees P

Camilo Pascual AL Senators P (Injured)

Early Wynn AL White Sox P

Gerry Staley AL White Sox P

Dick Stigman AL Indians P

Ed Bailey NL Reds C

Larry Jackson NL Cardinals P

Johnny Podres NL Dodgers P

Stan Williams NL Dodgers P

Bill Henry NL Reds P

Lindy McDaniel NL Cardinals P

1960 II 14 (ugh, Al Lopez goes off the rails, but Walt Alston does his team right for the 6-0 win)

Jim Gentile AL Orioles 1B

Luis Aparicio AL White Sox SS

Jim Lemon AL Senators OF

Elston Howard AL Yankees C

Bud Daley AL Athletics P

Chuck Estrada AL Orioles P

Bill Monbouquette AL Red Sox P

Jim Coates AL Yankees P

Dick Stigman AL Indians P

Camilo Pascual AL Senators P (Injured)

Bob Buhl NL Braves P

Bob Friend NL Pirates P

Mike McCormick NL Giants P

Roy Face NL Pirates P

1961 I 7

Jim Perry AL Indians P

Billy Pierce AL White Sox P

Ryne Duren AL Angels P

Eddie Kasko NL Reds SS

John Roseboro NL Dodgers C

Joey Jay NL Reds P

Art Mahaffey NL Phillies P

1961 II 24 (After a modern day like use of the roster by both Paul Richards and Danny Murtaugh in the first game, THIS happens!? And this is the 1-1 tie after 9 innings due to rain game at Fenway)

Yogi Berra AL Yankees C

Jim Gentile AL Orioles 1B

Bill Skowron AL Yankees 1B

Nellie Fox AL White Sox 2B

Harmon Killebrew AL Twins 3B

Dick Howser AL Athletics SS

Tony Kubek AL Yankees SS

Jackie Brandt AL Orioles OF

Tito Francona AL Indians OF

Dick Donovan AL Senators P

Whitey Ford AL Yankees P

Ken McBride AL Angels P

Luis Arroyo AL Yankees P

Barry Latman AL Indians P

Hoyt Wilhelm AL Orioles P

Don Zimmer NL Cubs 2B

Ken Boyer NL Cardinals 3B

Frank Robinson NL Reds OF

Ed Bailey NL Giants C

Don Drysdale NL Dodgers P

Joey Jay NL Reds P

Mike McCormick NL Giants P

Warren Spahn NL Braves P

Roy Face NL Pirates P

1962 I 14

Tom Tresh AL Yankees SS

Elston Howard AL Yankees C

Hank Aguirre AL Tigers P

Bill Monbouquette AL Red Sox P

Dave Stenhouse AL Senators P

Ralph Terry AL Yankees P

Hoyt Wilhelm AL Orioles P (Injured)

Richie Ashburn NL Mets OF (Pinch hits in the second game)

John Roseboro NL Dodgers C

Turk Farrell NL Astros P

Bob Gibson NL Cardinals P

Sandy Koufax NL Dodgers P

Warren Spahn NL Braves P

Hank Aaron NL Braves OF (Injured)

1962 II 14

Norm Siebern AL Athletics 1B

Mickey Mantle AL Yankees OF

Jim Landis AL White Sox OF

John Romano AL Indians C

Jim Bunning AL Tigers P

Dick Donovan AL Indians P

Jim Kaat AL Twins P

Camilo Pascual AL Twins P

Ralph Terry AL Yankees P

Hoyt Wilhelm AL Orioles P

Ken McBride AL Angels P (Injured)

Jim Davenport NL Giants 3B

Bob Purkey NL Reds P

Warren Spahn NL Braves P

[roger_that]

To return this discussion to where it began, it's idiotic for a variety of reasons to call Willie Mays a 24 time All Star, if only because he played only 23 seasons. I'd rather baseball reference labeled each of the 1959-1962 games as a 1/2 of an AllStar game election which would bring him down to 20 AS appearances.

And I'll concede his Mets appearances have more merit, though still weak, than I gave them at first but that's common, for a beloved player to get elected to all star teams past his actual starring days.

[stevejrogers]

To return this discussion to where it began, it's idiotic for a variety of reasons to call Willie Mays a 24 time All Star, if only because he played only 23 seasons. I'd rather baseball reference labeled each of the 1959-1962 games as a 1/2 of an AllStar game election which would bring him down to 20 AS appearances.

And I'll concede his Mets appearances have more merit, though still weak, than I gave them at first but that's common, for a beloved player to get elected to all star teams past his actual starring days.

 

Do you want to work on his counting stats as well?

http:// https://www.baseball-reference.com/allstar/leaders_bat.shtml

[stevejrogers]

And Frank Robinson deserves a .5 on his total selections because he was on only one of the 1962 games’ rosters?

[roger_that]

Yup, much more than Mays deserves two.

[stevejrogers]

That research was done for the “back of the baseball card” online hobby project I’ve been working on.

But the fact that there were so many DNPs each game should provide reasoning as to why it’s idiotic to suggest giving players selected to both games half a “point” on their games selected stats is idiotic.

1959-1962 is still in the era where the players and managers seemed to “care a little” about the game play.

You aren’t seeing less than 5 DNPs per team as you see today, and the game eligible roster sizes are nearly 40-Man roster deep these days!

If the squads were meant for a barnstorming series (similar to recent decades’ trips to Japan), or akin to Savanah Bananas/Harlem Globetrotters where the final tallies are even more meaningless when the point is much more about giving fans a lighthearted show than serious competitive game play exhibition, then the point of taking these things as seriously as people do (never mind “scoreboard” comparing one player vs another) is justifiably insane.

But those 8 games weren’t, so it is crazy to bark some nearly 70 years after the fact that the counting stats, at least roster appearances, should be altered!