Frayed Knot wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: ... c/would Utley have returned to the base before Ruben c/would have tagged him trying to do so. Whatever answer they come up with at that point is stupid and, yeah, it's pretty much guesswork. You know the difference. One is drawing a conclusion with facts and information. The other is drawing a conclusion without them. The latter is not the situation here. Forcing the to draw conclusions based on two events neither one of which would logically occur in the given situation is much closer to guesswork than it is to judgement. Forcing the whom? to draw conclusions? And no, it's not. As noted above. Frayed Knot wrote: And I don't know why we're even arguing these definitions anyway,. Because it's true. Because words mean things. And the words you choose support the argument, even if they don't accurately describe the facts. So that should be clarified to get at the truth. Frayed Knot wrote: My larger point... Which is always how someone shifts an argument in which their smaller-point-which-supports-the-larger point is shown to be insupportable. Frayed Knot wrote: ... is that proponents of the replay system argued that it was never going to be used to overturn microscopic mistakes, and, when asked what would happen when actions resulted from calls that were later overturned, gave some version of the answer; 'Eh, they'll figure out something'. And then you switch to a strawman argument.