IGT 05/17/07 - An Afternoon Game 4 with the Cubbies

[Elster88]

Green is 2 for 25 (.080) against Eyre lifetime. Willie admits to not knowing the numbers, but he says he went with his gut because of Green's statement. "Guys rarely say that they can't hit someone."

He had two outs left so he can bat Wright for Gotay or Green. Turns out he was right, using actual logic and experience this time.

Maybe it took brains and experience, not just cajones?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Some cajones also, and I don't mean that in the absence of brains and experience, but in trusting his own brains and experience. Because if he goes down sticking with Gotay, while Wright never bats, he gets ripped(as the Pool was starting to do), even if it's intellectually defensible as the right move.

See his pinch-hitting Cliff Floyd instead of bunting last October.

By the way, there'd be nothing wrong to my (currrent) evolving thinking about sending Lo Duca up for the pitcher, Beltran for Gotay, and Wright for Green. Anything objectionable there, now that we all benefit from hindsight?

[Guest Rotblatt]

Edgy DC wrote: By the way, there'd be nothing wrong to my (currrent) evolving thinking about sending Lo Duca up for the pitcher, Beltran for Gotay, and Wright for Green. Anything objectionable there, now that we all benefit from hindsight?

Well, LoDuca's 0-11 against Dempster, so that might not be the best move either . . .

I think Willie played everything fairly well in that sequence--definitely not disasterous, which was my first thought when I realized he was leaving Gotay in.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yup, yup, dixie cup.

Wow. I wonder if kids will be remembering this one as long as I'll remember the Steve Henderson game. (The main difference from the Steve Henderson game is, of course, that the comeback was executed by a rather bad Met team.)

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Plus there were hardly and good memories in the ~4 years before and since the Hendu game, so it sorta stands out.

[G-Fafif]

Edgy DC wrote: Yup, yup, dixie cup. Wow. I wonder if kids will be remembering this one as long as I'll remember the Steve Henderson game. (The main difference from the Steve Henderson game is, of course, that the comeback was executed by a rather bad Met team.)

Mets Walkoffs noted the Mets have won four games by overcoming a four-run deficit in the ninth: Steve Henderson, Carl Everett (down six, tied in nine, won in extras) and Olerud-Schilling. All four are among my fondest memories but only this one didn't involve a home run. Ventura hit what appeared to be a meaningless dinger off Schilling in '99.

And I don't know who to name this one after. Ruben Gotay? Carlos Delgado? Willie Randolph? Ryan Dempster?

I can't imagine any Mets fan with a memory of May 17, 2007 who saw it will ever forget it. Then again, I thought Marlon Anderson's inside-the-parker would live forever on a par with Steve Henderson. Two years later, not sure it has given that so much more has happened (yay!). But I haven't polled anybody.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I'll always remember the Marlon Anderson game.

[Guest Iubitul]

At the end of the Steve Henderson game, I remember Fred Wilpon standing on the field in front of the Mets dugout giving Hendu a high-five. Is my memory faulty?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Further Overanalysis:
Should we look at Green as commendibly honest or cowardly for coming forward with his inability to hit Eyre? Was this information solicited? Did Willie see the data and ask, "Shawn, what gives?"

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: I'll always remember the Marlon Anderson game.

I should add though, I remember it almost as much as The Cliff Floyd Game.

[G-Fafif]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: Johnny Dickshot wrote: I'll always remember the Marlon Anderson game. I should add though, I remember it almost as much as The Cliff Floyd Game.

A game's ID is helped enormously if a bit or relatively obscure player or opponent is the protagonist. I'm thinking there were a number of Cliff Floyd games in 2005, certainly amid his entire Met tenure (aside: hearing him with Eddie C. in Thursday's pregame reminded me why I loved him; few ballplayers are as self-aware). Just as there are many Carlos Delgado games to date.

To use the three examples of four-run, ninth-inning comebacks and the process one gives to naming them:

Steve Henderson: No question who owns this memory. In 1980 I would have said "but there are a lot of Steve Henderson games," but hindsight makes it pretty clear that there's to be no confusion that June 14, 1980 is the one we're talking about.

Carl Everett: Bernard Gilkey made it a win on September 13, 1997, but I will always remember it as Everett's doing that it got that far (sort of like Floyd winning it but Anderson tying it). A tip of the hat to Roberto Petagine for keeping it going, but a grand slam with two out after it was 6-0 and 6-2? No, it's Carl's.

Olerud/Schilling: A tougher call from May 23, 1999. Johnny was the hero, no doubt, but what set this apart was the Philadelphia ace staying in for the duration. There seemed to be no question that he wasn't coming out. No closer on call. Or as I yelled to my cats while on the couch and absorbing the sudden turn of fortune: "I HATE THAT GUY!" I didn't even know I did until that moment. The other image is Cedeno having himself an air fight after crossing home plate ("take that, AIR!"). Oly of course had a few big hits in his time. Now THAT'S a game that gets lost in the shuffle of bigger things that came later. But to that moment it felt like the greatest comeback ever that wasn't the other two or from October '86.

Yesterday will probably go down in my mind as the Cubs game, which doesn't sound right but seems accurate enough. Not to be confused with the Victor Diaz game (which has always been more Diaz than Brazell to me; sorry Craig) or anything from the distant past of Don Young and Jimmy Qualls.

I've still got chills from yesterday, I tell you what. Not to repeat myself from FAFIF, but you fantasize about endings like that. Not that I haven't had the good fortune of bearing witness to a few onsite (Mora, Pratt, Piazza and the nine runs that preceded him), but there is something time-bomb explosive about an unexpected ninth-inning comeback. It retrospect, it seems inevitable. It wasn't a true meltdown from Dempster in my eyes, a la what Wagner experienced a year ago this weekend (heaven forefend a repeat). The Mets just kind of said, all right, let's go win this thing. Presumptuous but that's my takeaway.

No wonder Ron Santo hates this place so much:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/cs-cubsbits17may17,1,804647.story

[G-Fafif]

="Edgy DC"]Further Overanalysis: Should we look at Green as commendibly honest or cowardly for coming forward with his inability to hit Eyre? Was this information solicited? Did Willie see the data and ask, "Shawn, what gives?"

I vote for honesty and wisdom. Shawn's a vet, one of several experienced players on this team who's here to win, not pump himself up unnecessarily (here to win in the "let's get it done" vein, not "I signed here to get a ring"). He's been around long enough to know if Scott Eyre is his Kryptonite and if so, why should he screw over the team to attempt to glorify himself when he's aware that the world's greatest bench is backing him up on this particular day?

I noticed upon watching the replay last night that he was as charged up as any Met bolting from the dugout to congratulate Delgado. Maybe there's something to these silly haircuts after all.

Didn't realize it was Wright's first PH appearance until later. One more nugget that makes this an instant legend.

[Frayed Knot]

From what I took from Willie's comments about Green & Eyre is that Shawn mentioned "not seeing this guy well" at some point prior to the 9th inning, not at that moment itself. IOW, Willie had that in the back of his mind when the situation came up but it wasn't like Green was looking for a way out there.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Sure, I assumed that was an earlier statement. I was looking for what distinguishes (in Willie's mind, at least) this "honest and wise" acknowledgment of one's inabilities from the one that ended Steve Trachsel's tenure. And I guess that distinction is that Green did it earlier in a moment of reflection and preparation, and Trax did it in the heat of the battle.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

[Guest iramets]

="OlerudOwned"]

Is there some place I can find an explanation for math dummies as to what these damned (interesting) charts mean, how they're derived, etc.?