Clem Labine

[Guest iramets]

Apropos of not much, Joe Christopher went 3 for his first 5 Abs vs. Koufax, and 7 for his first 20, but then went 3-for-22 against Koufax in his last few years as a Met, giving him a total of 10-for-42, respectable but not much more. Elio Chacon went 3-for-8 vs. Koufax in 1962


The Mets went fairly apeshit against Koufax the first time he faced them, Elio and JC particularly so, and Hodges went yard on his ass, too, as they scored six runs off K., but got their asses kicked just the same:

New York Mets AB R H RBI BB SO PO A
Christopher rf 5 2 3 1 0 0 1 0
Chacon ss 3 1 3 0 2 0 0 1
Cook 3b 5 0 1 0 0 1 0 2
Thomas lf 4 0 1 1 1 1 2 0
Hodges 1b 3 1 1 1 0 0 7 1
Kanehl 1b 2 0 1 1 0 1 4 0
Hickman cf 5 1 2 1 0 1 1 0
Mantilla 2b 5 1 1 0 0 0 4 4
Taylor c 1 0 0 0 0 1 2 0
Chiti ph,c 3 0 0 0 0 3 3 0
Landrith c 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0
Hook p 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 1
Hillman p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Moorhead p 2 0 0 0 0 1 0 1
Ashburn ph 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Mizell p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Totals 40 6 13 5 3 10 27 10
FIELDING -
E: Kanehl (2).
BATTING -
2B: Hickman (5,off Koufax); Thomas (8,off Koufax).
HR: Hodges (6,4th inning off Koufax 0 on 0 out).
IBB: Thomas (1,by Koufax).
Team LOB: 10.
PITCHINGLos Angeles Dodgers IP H R ER BB SO HR
Koufax W(7-2) 9 13 6 6 3 10 1
WP: Koufax (2).
IBB: Koufax (3,Thomas).
New York Mets IP H R ER BB SO HR
Hook L(3-5) 2 5 5 5 2 0 1
Hillman 1 5 4 4 0 1 1
Moorhead 5 6 3 3 1 4 1
Mizell 1 3 1 1 0 2 1
Totals 9 19 13 13 3 7 4
Hook faced 3 batters in the 3rd inning

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Freakin Kanehl

[Guest iramets]

After wasting much of my day adding up boxscores to arrive at lifetime totals, I've learned that retrosheet has already added up totals for most pitcher/batter matchups. Uecker's official numbers vs. Koufax are

AB H 2B 3B HR BB IBB SO HBP SH SF AVG OBP SLG

Sandy Koufax 38 7 2 0 1 3 1 8 0 0 0 .184 .244 .316

It would be interesting to compare various memories of what people think they did against other people with what the numbers show.

As it happens there was a backup catcher on the Braves/Cardinals/Phillies who killed Koufax, but it wasn't Uecker. He was swapped for Uecker, though, even up. Here's Gene Oliver's lifetime numbers

Gene Oliver 51 20 1 0 4 3 0 11 0 0 0 .392 .426 .647

Not too shabby.

[Guest iramets]

There are about 20 hitters who got at least 100 ABs against Tom Seaver. The six best collectively got 660 ABs (about a full season) against him, and got 198 hits off him, for exactly a .300 BA (with 33 HRs). I wonder if Seaver could identify these batters, given that information. I wonder if you can. Want to try to guess these six?

While you�re guessing, name the six batters who each got 100 ABs against Seaver and who collectively batted .219 (161 hits in 735 Abs) with 6 HRs.

All twelve btw are multiple All-stars (I�m pretty sure), with a few HOFers in the mix, so these are names you know.

[Guest iramets]

To get a little more contemporary on your asses, Jose Reyes has batted against five pitchers at least 10 times apiece, with very good and very bad results:

The bottom five he has 75 Abs against but only 4 base hits (3 singles, 1 double). That's .053. You�ll know who they are when he faces them this season, but you can guess who they are right now. (Willie probably has these numbers�I wonder if he�ll sit Jose down against them this year. Prolly not�Jose sits for no one.) Or you can guess which five pitchers Jose has faced 82 times so far with a total of 39 hits against ( a cool .476 average!) with 3 HRs, 4 triples (all off the same guy!), and 10 doubles. That�s an .805 slg against these hapless pitchers. BOLO for these guys this year.

Curiously, in a very long career in one league, Tom Glavine has never faced a single batter as much as 100 times, and probably never will. I guess that's what comes from playing so many different teams, interleague play, etc. If we reduce Glavine's level to 50 ABs, there are five guys who've batted 313 times against him (the data is said to be incomplete) with 110 hits for a .351 average with 21 HRs, pretty good for a half season's work.

OTOH, five guys who've hit against him at least 50 times have only a .199 average, with 281 ABs and a mere 56 hits (and one puny HR). Each list of Glavine's foes, btw, contains at least one sure shot HOFer, and a few scrubbinie middle infielders--the lists seem pretty evenly matched to me, sugesting that maybe there is small sample size at work here, and not design.

[metirish]

Mike Schmidt
Frank Robinson
Willie Stargell

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

This is a quiz as to the 5 pitchers who have faced Reyes most often?

My guesses:

Wolf
Willis
Myers
L Hernandez
Smoltz

[Guest iramets]

metirish wrote: Mike Schmidt Frank Robinson Willie Stargell

This is your Seaver list?

No.
No.
Yes. Willie Stargell 128 / 31 8 HRs .242 .300 .555

[Guest Edgy DC]

There's got to be some Lou Brock action in there. I'll add Don Kessinger for good measure. I don't know where he batted in the lineup, but he was a Cub, he was a Cardinal, and he played every day from 1967-1977.

OE: That would leave about 22 of the 33 homers to Willie Stargell, though, wouldn't it?

[Guest iramets]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: This is a quiz as to the 5 pitchers who have faced Reyes most often? My guesses: Wolf Willis Myers L Hernandez Smoltz

Actually, it's not, though I can tell you that Willis, Myers, Smoltz and Hernandez would be on such a list.

Willis 44
Smoltz 36
Hernandez 36
Myers 33
Hudson 28
Lieber 28

Wolf has a mere 23. Pretty good, Johnny.

Some these guys have pwned Reyes, some not so much.

[Guest iramets]

Edgy DC wrote: There's got to be some Lou Brock action in there. I'll add Don Kessinger for good measure. I don't know where he batted in the lineup, but he was a Cub, he was a Cardinal, and he played every day from 1967-1977. OE: That would leave about 22 of the 33 homers to Willie Stargell, though, wouldn't it?

Which list are you putting these guys on, the good vs. Seaver or the bad?

[Guest Edgy DC]

I guess I'm answering the unasked "who had the most appearances?" question.

[Guest iramets]

DWright has faced five pitchers at least 10 times apiece with a .125 BA (9/72) and 0 HRs.

He's also faced five pitchers at least 10 times apiece for a .555 BA (30/54)with 10 HRs.

What would be interesting would be to see if any of these pitchers have common characteristics (left-handed fastball/changeup guy, righthanded power pitcher with poor control, etc.)

[Frayed Knot]

I've lost track of all the questions here.



I remember the 'Uecker wearing out Koufax' story as coming from McCarver. Taht doesn't neccesarily mean that he's the one who started it but that's how I heard it relayed.
Timmy boy is probably recalling that one season where Ueck had some success and then extrapolating. The Labine/Musial legend probably grew in much the same manner.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Some examples of the Uecker myth:

St. James Encyclopedia: "While Uecker's offensive skills were weak, he had his greatest batting success, ironically, off the top pitcher of his generation, Sandy Koufax."

Uecker Quote: Career highlights? I had two. I got an intentional walk from Sandy Koufax and I got out of a rundown against the Mets.

Sports Encyclopedia: Strange Stat:
Bob Uecker arguably the worst hitter ever with a lifetime .200 average, had one pitcher he could hit. That pitcher was the most dominant of the era, Sandy Koufax. Uecker's lifetime average in over 50 At Bats against Koufax is .429.

Amazin'.

Tom Boswell's Heart of the Order: "In his prime, Sandy Koufax found one hitter almost impossible to retire. Koufax and catcher Jeff Torborg held many confabs discussing selection of pitches to this nefarious fellow, who once hit two home runs and built a .400 average aginst the Dodger southpaw. `We tried everything. Curves and fastballs. In, out, up, down,' recalled Torborg. `Nothing worked. Bob Uecker owned Sandy Koufax.'"

I think we might have found the source from which the river of bullshit flows, and, if so, it's not Uecker. Looks like I'm wrong about the Ueck.

The funny thing is that Bob's numbers, while not good, are nothing to be ashamed about for a whack-hitting goofy-acting backup catcher against the toughest pitcher in baseball during a pitchers' era.

[Guest iramets]

Edgy DC wrote: I guess I'm answering the unasked "who had the most appearances?" question.

Well, if youse guys keep answering questions I haven;t asked, I guess I'll have to look it up, right? Most Seaver ABs:

Brock 152
Rose 139
Bowa 132
Kessinger 129
Oliver 127
Stargell 128


What do these next five guys have in common, besides they all kill Oliver Perez? (28 for 76 with 13 HR�on a full 608 AB season that comes to a .368 BA and 104 HRs) : Pujols, the Joses Hernandez and Cruz, Jay Payton (!) and Pat Burrell.

[metirish]

The Uecker quote is just so funny..

[Frayed Knot]

We've now got 3 seperate stats in this thread for Uecker v Koufax.
Between them they say that he had:
* 29 ABs
* 38 ABs
and
* "over 50"



The Uecker story I've never heard the details of is the one where his career was said to have ended prematurely due to injuries received in a bar fight.

[Guest iramets]

OTOH, Perez gets these guys out easily: 6/62 0 HR. Do they have any common traits, besides being bad hitters whom I�ve never heard of? Chad Moeller. David Ross, Tim Hummel, Jason Romano, and Jolbert Cabrera.

I think I spread a little Jolbert Cabrera on a cracker last night--it wasn't bad.

The secret to Perez's sporadic success seems to be: face bad backup catchers and middle infielders. He's great against nobodies, not so much against the Pujols and Burrells.

[Guest iramets]

Frayed Knot wrote: We've now got 3 seperate stats in this thread for Uecker v Koufax.

Retrosheet, which says their Uecker/Koufax matchups are complete, gives 7 for 38 (.184), with 1 HR. That's what I'd go with.

Just pick someone you think you'd connect with. Are there any pitchers, for example, you'd think would be tough on Reyes? Any type of pitcher? Any type you'd think he'd cream?

Those Uecker quotes are mind-blowing. Have these people no shame?

[G-Fafif]

Frayed Knot wrote: Ballplayers don't always provide the best perspective on things, even when they were a part of them.

Thought of this insightful statement about half an hour ago listening to Dan Patrick interview Lou Piniella on ESPN Radio regarding where Alfonso Soriano will hit in the Cubs' order. Since Soriano has so much power, would you move him from leadoff? was Patrick's question. Piniella answered with an inspirational story about how the Yankees got Bobby Bonds in his, Piniella's, first year with the team, when "we were playing at Shea Stadium," and Bonds was inserted into the cleanup slot and hated it and was doing miserably, so he was switched back to leadoff and he thrived so much that he hit 40 homers and "the Yankees almost won the pennant."

Let's see...
--Bonds came in '75, Piniella's second year as a Yankee, team's second year at Shea
--Bonds was traded for and replaced Murcer who had a devil of a time at Shea, so I'm guessing Piniella kind of blurred them together (having gone out of his way to invoke the ballpark)
--Bonds, for the most part, batted either third (33 times) or first (101 times). He indeed hit for a much higher average as a leadoff man and hit with more power (five homers from the three-hole where he hit until mid-May).
--Bonds hit 32 homers. Very nice, but not 40, not particularly close to 40. Tailed off in the second half, too.
--The Yankees battled the Orioles for the A.L. East crown, right down to the wire in 1974 while Bobby Bonds was still in San Francisco. In '75, Bonds' only year, they were very much an also-ran.

Piniella's overriding point, that sometimes a power hitter is more comfortable batting leadoff, is proven out. But most of the points he used to make it were askew.

But how would he remember? He was only a player then.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I had a recent email exchange with George Theodore producing similarly disappointing results. I explained to him that using photo data and other evidence I'd been able to narrow down the switching of his uniform number from 18 to 9 to a period early in the 1973 season, probably mid-May. Did you recall any additional detail?

GT: I think it was in 1974.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

You've been e-mailing with George Theodore???

Cool!

What's he up to these days? And is he interested in visiting with us?

(Of course, if he doesn't remember anything, it might not be such an interesting visit.)

[Guest Edgy DC]

Considering that, besides his nickname, he's best remembered for a brutal outfield collision, we're lucky he remembers anything at all.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

He might!

I am not the guy to set it up though ... I used up my favors with him getting him to answer my questions.

But I will say his name + Utah + phone in Google produces surprisingly accurate results.

[Frayed Knot]

And, btw, I don't neccesarily mean to pick just on ballplayers and imply that they're all lying lyers with lyer sprinkles on top.
The human memory is very fallable as cops will tell you about even first-hand recollections of accident or crime scenes.


Or, as they sang in Gigi:

He: We met at nine.
She: We met at eight.
He: I was on time.
She: No, you were late.

Both: Ah yes! I remember it well.

He: We dined with friends.
She: We dined alone.
He: A tenor sang.
She: A baritone.

Ah yes! I remember it well.



It's just that when things are heard directly from a player there's a tendancy for fans & media to simply accept it as gospel even though they're no better at it than the rest of us and, from an unbiased perspective sort of view, sometimes much worse.

[Guest iramets]

Frayed Knot wrote: And, btw, I don't neccesarily mean to pick just on ballplayers and imply that they're all lying lyers with lyer sprinkles on top. .

But they are.

As you say, so is everyone, but they're given special credibility. If Piniella, Labine, Grote, etc. says he participated in some long-ago event that happened in such-a-way, that pretty much settles it. So it's not that they're bigger liars than other people, it's that they get away with the most easily contradicted lies that chaps my shorts.

You or I or Lewis Libby would do time for perjury if we tried getting away with some of their bullshit.

[metirish]

I'm reading a fiction book by Robert B Parker where Clem Labine gets mentioned in passing,the book is about a private eye named Spencer brought in by the Red Sox owner to investigate weather the Sox star pitcher is throwing games....not a bad read either..

[Guest iramets]

="metirish"]I'm reading a fiction book by Robert B Parker where Clem Labine gets mentioned in passing,the book is about a private eye named Spencer brought in by the Red Sox owner to investigate weather the Sox star pitcher is throwing games....not a bad read either..

That's a very early Spencer novel, as I recall. (The first one was The Godwulf Manuscript--this may have been the second.) Nowadays, the amusing part is reading about Spencer some 35 years after he made his debut, self-describing as a Korean War vet, which makes him about 40 years old, at least in the mid 70s and about 75 today. But he's still beating guys up, out-racing young thugs, etc.

[Frayed Knot]

"and about 75 today ... still beating guys up, out-racing young thugs, etc."

Otherwise known as the 'Barnaby Jones' syndrome.