Astros-Braves NLDS thread

[Valadius]

They're freshmen, but they're like best friends already.

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Oh good, I was worried that they hated each other since day one,

Um, either of them interested in dating a 28 year old?

Joking, joking, just feel the need to make a conversion to the Flushing Side!

Steve

[Guest SwitchHitter]

...the thing is, we have a birthday in the house (my second son) and so I had to turn the game off in the 15 so we could go to the restaurant and stuff.

I may not like him, but Clemens done good. The whole bullpen done good. And that reminds me, thanks y'all for Wheeler.

I could not believe that Cox left Farnsworth in for the ninth. I guess that's because of the bullpen he has. Except for Farnsworth, they done pretty good, too. As for DeVine, giving up a solo shot can happen to anyone. He did strike out three in 1.1 innings so he didn't do that badly either.

And lets talk about homers. Ausmus hit only three this year and Burke only hit five. Amazing.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Congratulations to the Astros on a dramatic come from behind win to clinch their NLDS against the Braves.

There is much joy in the SwitchHitter household tonight.

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

SwitchHitter wrote: I may not like him, but Clemens done good. The whole bullpen done good. And that reminds me, thanks y'all for Wheeler. .

Traded for a guy named Adam Seuss

Too lazy to look up if he is still in the org right now...Nor do I really care at this point...

=

Steve

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Suess tested positive for steroids and was subsequently released.

Great game.

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: Suess tested positive for steroids and was subsequently released. Great game.

SPLENDID!

Hopeless, HOPELESS personel

Uh, wait a sec...

Wouldn't Orza and Fehr be all over the Mets for releasing a guy becuase he flunked a drug test? (let alone steriods) Granted he's not an MLBer yet but still, harsh

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Oh and this makes it even more funnier, he was picked back up by the Astros!

[smg58]

This is the danger of carrying around too many relievers, and not giving a fair chance to the guys in your system who are ready to pitch at this level. I'm worried that Heath Bell will similarly hit his stride for someone else after either a waiver claim or a trade for basically nothing.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I think we have the order wrong here. Seuss tested positive as Astro property, I think.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Yer right. Seuess was released, then tested positive.

Losing Wheeler was a bad deal no doubt, but IIRC, he was oddmanned out because of a a 40-man situation with Brian Buchanan being signed to try and help the offense and Seo needing to be recalled to take a start that week.

He wasn't going very well at that point either -- he had an ERA of 4.8 when we traded him, and had Bell and Fortunato to take ganders at.

[metirish]

This was a great game, finally the NL playoffs came alive.I'm happy for Wheeler, sucks that the Mets lost that bit of post season history.

[Guest sharpie]

Danny Kolb -- starts the year as the Braves closer and then doesn't even make it into the 18-inning game in front of a guy with an ERA of 10.

[Frayed Knot]

Supposedly there were discussions on the Houston bench about what to do when Clemens reached his limit (remember, this was only his "throw day" between starts) and needed to be taken out.
The answer is that they would have put OFer Jason Lane - a college hurler - in to pitch. BUT, because they had no remaining bench players, Clemens would have had to stay in the game. Where do you put him??

Lane on the mound, Clemens to 1st base, Ausmus to the OF, Chavez back to catcher???

Now THAT would have been fun to watch!



Joey Devine - the guy who served up the HR to Burke - was the Braves 1st round pick just this year! I hadn't realized they had called him up - he was one of those college closers put on the fast track type a la Hansen up in Boston. He only pitched 6 innings in the season and he's still the guy Cox chose ahead of Kolb.

[Guest sharpie]

Yeah, Danny Kolb - available.

[HahnSolo]

Maybe this should go in the baseball news of the weird thread, but perhaps no one had a better game than 25-year-old Shaun Dean of Porter, Texas. Seated in the left field bleachers, Dean caught not only Berkman's 8th-inning grand slam, he was also on the receiving end of Burke's series-winning blast in the 18th.
Dean will be invited to attend practice on Friday at Minute Maid Park, and is expected to return the balls to Burke and Berkman.

[Guest SwitchHitter]

Frayed Knot wrote: Supposedly there were discussions on the Houston bench about what to do when Clemens reached his limit (remember, this was only his "throw day" between starts) and needed to be taken out. The answer is that they would have put OFer Jason Lane - a college hurler - in to pitch. BUT, because they had no remaining bench players, Clemens would have had to stay in the game. Where do you put him?? Lane on the mound, Clemens to 1st base, Ausmus to the OF, Chavez back to catcher???

No. You move Biggio to LF, Burke to RF, Vizcaino to 2B, Ausmus to SS, Chavez to C and put Clemens in at 1B. Ausmus played SS once during the regular season and handled his chance well.

Frayed Knot wrote: Now THAT would have been fun to watch!

You got that right.

[Guest sharpie]

Wasn't Oswalt still hanging around? Even though he'd thrown the day before I still woulda put him in there rather than an outfielder.

[Guest SwitchHitter]

I read somewhere that Oswalt would have come in as a position player when Lane took the hill. Lane pitched his college team to a CWS championship and Gar thought he'd be a better choice than an unrested Oswalt. I don't know that I can argue with him. But I'm biased. Bagwell, Biggio and even Berkman are all great players, but Lane is my favorite. I have a thing for the young guys and I fell for him hard the first game I saw him in.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

Greg's thoughts on this series

[G-Fafif]

ScarletKnight41 wrote: Greg's thoughts on this series

Far be it from me to get in the way of a FAFIF plug (thanks SK!), but did it strike anybody else that even though we lost the title of longest post-season game ever played that this didn't match up to our postseason frightfests in terms of ubersuspense?

An 18-inning game tied in the bottom of the ninth on a home run by a catcher with three dingers all year an inning after a grand slam brought the team back from the dead and then, eight innings after a potential walkoff goes foul, a little-known rookie wins it after a Hall of Fame starter pitches three scoreless innings of relief not dramatic enough?

It was plenty dramatic. But I wasn't feeling the crazy tension of Mets-Astros Game Six or Mets-Red Sox Game Six or Mets-Diamondbacks Game Four or Mets-Braves Games Five and Six or Mets-Giants Game Three.

I know, it didn't involve the Mets. But beyond that, it just felt long, not ohmigod, I'm going to kill myself if somebody doesn't score soon. I felt that way during the Angels-Red Sox Game 5 in '86 and I didn't have a clear rooting interest then. I felt that way during almost the entire 1991 World Series when I'll admit to admiring the Braves but certainly not hating the Twins. I felt it more in the Cardinal-Astro undercard last year and I surely felt it in the Yankee-Red Sox main event of '04.

I felt mostly curious about this one, not as if my life depended on the outcome. Why didn't this game take me over like those did?

Was it just my searing hatred for both teams (well for one team and one Hall of Fame bound pitcher, respectively)?

Was it that it was Game Four and not Game Five and thus there would've been a tomorrow for Houston (which technically would be today)?

Was it that this classic was shunted to ESPN and the announcers (our own dependable Dave O'Brien and the uselessly yakative Rick Sutcliffe) didn't sell the drama as an Al Michaels (in ALCS Game 5 1986: "If you're just tuning in...too bad!") might have?

Was it the continual reminders that SportsCenter and NFL Tonight would be as soon as this silly baseball game ends?

Was it that this completely became the Astros' show from the eighth inning on and that it never legitimately seemed that the Braves would prevail?

It was great. It was memorable. But I wasn't feeling, despite what Phil Garner understandably claimed, Greatest Game Ever Played absorption.

Anybody else?

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

1986 was different because our team was involved.

1986 was different because we couldn't afford to have a Game 7 against that cheater Mike Scott (who definitely scuffed those balls!).

1986 was different because the Mets were supposed to be a team of destiny, and yet the postseason was not the cakewalk that was expected after that stellar regular season.

And yes, 1986 was different because we weren't rooting against both teams involved in the epic game. In this household, we were rooting for bodies on the field so that the winner by attrition would be weakened for its fight against St. Louis (my older son, the one you didn't meet, is a Cardinals fan back to their Mark McGwire days).

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

I think its a regional thing. When talking national stuff like 1980 Phillies v Houston goes head to head against 86

So I think that is why people here in this area probably have an indifference feel towards it, or simply "Hell of a game, but it doesn't measure up to..."

Great point to that, anyone remeber that 1980 NL West Play Off Game? Or what about that legendary performance (no sarcasim here) that Randy Johnson performed in the 1995 AL West Play Off game? No? Not quite? But you remember that Bucky Dent game, Bobby Thomson's 1951 gets ranked as the # 1 memorable moment/homer in the history of the game both probably due to the oversaturation of Dodgers, Yankees and Redsox genuflecting with the major national media

Also look at how the 86 WS is treated. Ask a Met fan for the greatest series of all time, 86 will rank up there, but ask a baseball historian, probably barely cracks the top ten (due to real sloppy baseball and managing, the fact that the legendary pitching clash of Clemens v Gooden fizzled, the fact that "lesser known" bit players like Barrett, Hurst, Darling, Wilson and Knight were the stars of the series while future HOF canidates like Boggs, Clemens, Carter, Strawberry, ect were not having good series, ect)

Another point I think is that the Astros' ultimate fate has yet to be determined. I mean Ventura's Grand Slam Single doesn't rank as a great moment anymore because the Mets failed to win that series. Almost like fans are tempid when considering its rank in history because it may or may not propell the Astros to a championship

Steve

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Definitely not the greatest game ever played, but a fine game anyway.

I was kind of disappointed when this one ended because I thought it could get a lot greater had they made it to 20 innings.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: Definitely not the greatest game ever played, but a fine game anyway. I was kind of disappointed when this one ended because I thought it could get a lot greater had they made it to 20 innings.

MK was also hoping for 20 innings.

Which reminds me of when we were in DC on July 4th, and I'd hear MK say something on one side of me while you were saying almost exactly the same thing on the other side. Weird.

[G-Fafif]

mlbaseballtalk wrote: Also look at how the 86 WS is treated. Ask a Met fan for the greatest series of all time, 86 will rank up there, but ask a baseball historian, probably barely cracks the top ten

ESPN, going into the 2002 Series, ranked 1986 as No. 8 all-time. The top three happened to be my top three that I've seen: 1991, 1975, 2001.

We also had the two highest-ranked five-game series, '69 and '00, and '73 ranked in the Top 25 as well. If you're thinking New York bias, there were plenty of MFY series that were written off as awfully dull.

The Mets are carriers of drama.

The 1980 Phillie-Astro NLCS tilt was an all-around classic, probably the best of the five-game era.

[metirish]

A Houston baseball writer today on PTI on ESPN was asked by Michael Wilbon where he rates this game, he said the 86 game was far better in his opinion, he covered that game and felt that whole series had a different feeling than this one, he didn't get a chance to explain more.

[G-Fafif]

mlbaseballtalk wrote: Ventura's Grand Slam Single doesn't rank as a great moment anymore because the Mets failed to win that series.

Perhaps. An MLB poll of fans (a more limited online audience back then) voted it the greatest moment of the 1999 season and post-season. It will never fall from our lists, but across the board, I think a lot of LDS and LCS moments get lost in the shuffle. There's just so much October baseball that a lot of it, unfortunately, trickles down the memory hole.

A while back, I was researching something about the Mets and 1999 when I came across a Newsday list titled something like Great Baseball Moments of 1999. There was NO mention of the Grand Slam Single. It didn't clinch anything, so whoever was compiling the list (a callow intern new to sports, I'd like to think) didn't think to mention it nor anything pertaining to the Mets' first post-season appearance in eleven years. You're gonna tell me that a New York/Long Island paper really thought Tony Gwynn's 3000th hit or Robin Yount's induction into Cooperstown was a bigger deal to its readers?

Leave the Mets out of it. In 1997, the Orioles and Indians played a classic Game 6 in the ALCS. Mussina vs. Nagy. It went eleven. Mussina struck out eleven in eight. Tony Fernandez hit a solo homer off Armando Benitez in the top of the eleventh and Jose Mesa made it stand up to clinch the pennant. One of the most pressure-packed games I can remember. And do you hear a word about it today, less than a decade later?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Philly-Houston 1980 was fantastic. Best series possible on all artificial turf.

Hero of heroes was an ex-Met, of course. So I guess my bias leaks through anyhow.

[Guest SwitchHitter]

metirish wrote: A Houston baseball writer today on PTI on ESPN was asked by Michael Wilbon where he rates this game, he said the 86 game was far better in his opinion, he covered that game and felt that whole series had a different feeling than this one, he didn't get a chance to explain more.

I didn't see PTI so I can't say for sure, but if that was Richard Justice (who I hear has been on PTI in the past, several times) he doesn't really mean it.He says what he thinks people want to hear, and if that means he contradicts himself, well....I'm not sure how he excuses it to himself.